Internet political discourse "dangerous"

last SG · 2006-04-04T01:55:16+00:00

If the government is going to make an example out of it, the information can be fed to the press and it will be page 1 news (just like the talk given by Dr B...

LazerLordz SG

One good example of us trying to tell people what to say. This is what I do not want Singapore to become, a nation with a government that seeks to tell others what to say about us.

When you are faced with international publications saying B, and one lone govt voice saying A, I'm more inclined to believe B. Nuff said. There might be factions and interests at play, that's why all we ask are a multiplicity of views for the voters and citizens to judge for themselves, because no single point of view can be trusted wholesale in this turbulent world.

Do not belittle the citizens by saying that political discourse is dangerous just because it's not published by the Straits Times..In the same vein, why not just dismantle the education system, since by association, the logical assumption is that we are not educated after all.

Rolling Eyes

LazerLordz SG

Singapore needs her own people to show the way forward, not merely one group's ideas which may not go down well with others.

A marketplace of ideas will suss out those that will not work with the populace, and ensure nothing is forced down their throat.

Not only that, the space for armchair observers must be respected, because there has to be a wide latitude of political participation from all spectrums of the society.A strong Republic needs input from all sources, in many aspects, not limiting to political parties, but also society as a whole.

Atobe SG

Is it safe from the SYSTEM in which the POWER OF ONE dominates ?

Read the following : "Googles Sell Out Freedom of Speech"

Is there any difference between the Peoples Republic of China dominated by the Chinese Communist Party, and the "People's" Republic of Singapore dominated by the POWER OF ONE ?

LazerLordz SG

any nation with "people" or "democratic" in its official title, can be safely said to be otherwise. Laughing

KittynMeow SG

problem is we don't have a marketplace of ideas at the moment... not just because of regulatory reasons that clamp on any barter exchange of ideas in the first place, but also because of the inherent spiral of silence that everyone is so comfortable with....

Atobe SG

There seem to be no lack of ideas in this sgForums that have yet to see any clamp being placed.

Is there any "inherent spiral of silence that everyone is so comfortable with..." ?

Can we depend on the summary of viewers - of all the threads posted and compare it with the number of responses to the various threads - to conclude this "inherent spiral of silence" ?

Is the silence due to the cynicism that is seen to be so pervasive towards those who post critical views towards the SYSTEM created by the POWER OF ONE ?

CaramelCrab SG

i find so much of what you "open-minded", sliding-towards-sg-government-bashing people have to say incredibly utopian in ideals but not at all achievable in any society.

Its fair to say, hey i want a government that allows us to express our own views no matter how rubbish they might be. But to what extent are you willing to sacrifice your comforts in life for ideals?

Dont get me wrong. I'm all for fighting for your ideals and rights in any society. BUT. There is a danger here that i fear many do not see. I'm going to give you a clear cut example. Take the Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia for example. Just before the Khmer Rouge gained power, Cambodia was a fricking rich country, proudcer and exporter of rice; also very technogically advanced for the 1940s (i think it was then) and a hub for business. HOWEVER, due to corruption in the government, which was made public, many wanted them to step down, and many people supported the Khmer Rouge ideals (which are no different from yours or mine during the campaign period). When the new party finally came into power, disaster broke out and just because of 3 years of bad governing, look at the state of cambodia today. It is utterly backwards, it cannot even produce enough to feed its own people.

Take the recent stepping down of Thaksin. My point is that the people forget how the present government, no matter how corrupted or authoritative or dogmatic it may be, actually did shit LOADS for the lives of the people. That is why the peasants supported Thaksin. The rich dont care, the rich have too much time and money on their hands and they think they have earned their wealth without any help from the government. BULLSHIT. Whatever you have right now, whatever comforts, whatever opportunities you have in your hands, YOU DID NOT EARN IT ALL BY YOURSELF. Just fucking count yourself lucky to be born in singapore where you get mandatory education. You think you will be able to live as you are right now if you were born in the poor areas of india or worse, south africa?

That is why i am wary of people who claim to fight ALL THE WAY for free speech, those who are over eager to nit pick with the government, because i feel that they are spoiled citizens. Appreciate what you have right now, thats all i have to say.

I'm not saying that you have to close your mind to any viewpoints and to NEVER question the government. Done intelligently with proper knowledge, research and a well rounded viewpoint, it can benefit a country. BUT the thing is, most complaints and ramblings are done out of boredom and childish frustration, and i find they tend to do more harm than any real good.

oxford mushroom SG

That is so true. It is also telling when people who criticize the government have absolutely nothing positive to say and offer no credible solutions. I disagree with many government policies but one should give credit where credit is due.

And just because you agree with some government policies does not make you a government dog either...how immature can people be?[/quote]

SG,LauBaiXing SG

Originally posted by CaramelCrab:
i find so much of what you "open-minded", sliding-towards-sg-government-bashing people have to say incredibly utopian in ideals but not at all achievable in any society.

Its fair to say, hey i want a government that allows us to express our own views no matter how rubbish they might be. But to what extent are you willing to sacrifice your comforts in life for ideals?

Dont get me wrong. I'm all for fighting for your ideals and rights in any society. BUT. There is a danger here that i fear many do not see. I'm going to give you a clear cut example. Take the Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia for example. Just before the Khmer Rouge gained power, Cambodia was a fricking rich country, proudcer and exporter of rice; also very technogically advanced for the 1940s (i think it was then) and a hub for business. HOWEVER, due to corruption in the government, which was made public, many wanted them to step down, and many people supported the Khmer Rouge ideals (which are no different from yours or mine during the campaign period). When the new party finally came into power, disaster broke out and just because of 3 years of bad governing, look at the state of cambodia today. It is utterly backwards, it cannot even produce enough to feed its own people.

Take the recent stepping down of Thaksin. [b]My point is that the people forget how the present government, no matter how corrupted or authoritative or dogmatic it may be, actually did shit LOADS for the lives of the people. That is why the peasants supported Thaksin. The rich dont care, the rich have too much time and money on their hands and they think they have earned their wealth without any help from the government. BULLSHIT. Whatever you have right now, whatever comforts, whatever opportunities you have in your hands, YOU DID NOT EARN IT ALL BY YOURSELF. Just fucking count yourself lucky to be born in singapore where you get mandatory education. You think you will be able to live as you are right now if you were born in the poor areas of india or worse, south africa?

That is why i am wary of people who claim to fight ALL THE WAY for free speech, those who are over eager to nit pick with the government, because i feel that they are spoiled citizens. Appreciate what you have right now, thats all i have to say.

I'm not saying that you have to close your mind to any viewpoints and to NEVER question the government. Done intelligently with proper knowledge, research and a well rounded viewpoint, it can benefit a country. BUT the thing is, most complaints and ramblings are done out of boredom and childish frustration, and i find they tend to do more harm than any real good.[/b]

I've some questions to ask you because I really don't know what is going wrong.
1) Please help to name which country leaders using Defamation Lawsuit to sue political opponents untill they gone bankcruptcy or escape to another country ?
2) Which Democratic country leader pass political power to his children ?
3) Which country using public housing up-grading as a threat if the their MP is not voted in the paliament ?
4) Which country force car owner to dispose their own car after 10 years ?
5) Which country pay higher than Singapore PM and other Minister ?
I would like to stop at 5 questions and let many others whom can help me to name more later.

snow leopard SG

i think lwflee, atobe and lazerlords gave very sound rebuttals and i share their sentiments. if it was meant to be a cover up, you think they would leave traces behind for you to find out? even if they do leave traces, you think they would be stupid enough to invite you to get close enough to sniff out any evidence of mismanagement? so even if they did cover up, you would never ever know would you?

about the CSJ case. he may have caught wind of some imminent transactions, whether it was intended as a red herring to lure him or a real intention initially on the part of our govt (which really isn't surprising as you see the amount of help we've rendered indonesia of late). in any case, to prove CSJ's case, we would need to prove that there was actual correspondence, discussions, meetings amongst the govt officials involved in the intended transaction which did not materialise eventually. that would require investigators to go into govt offices unimpeded and given full access to emails, pcs, documents ... given that the investigators themselves are employed by the govt, what possibility is there of them turning out anything useful to CSJ?

snow leopard SG

Originally posted by CaramelCrab:
i find so much of what you "open-minded", sliding-towards-sg-government-bashing people have to say incredibly utopian in ideals but not at all achievable in any society.

you're saying freedom of speech and the right to exert our wishes isn't achievable in any society? it probably cannot be achieved in this country only as everywhere else you find to varying degrees, the people's right to exert their wishes, even in a communist state like Ukraine, where we witnessed some protests of late. so are we worse than the communists? seems like we're closer to a military junta in this respect.

Its fair to say, hey i want a government that allows us to express our own views no matter how rubbish they might be. But to what extent are you willing to sacrifice your comforts in life for ideals?

when you start off by saying that views expressed, other than those of the official tagline, is considered rubbish, you leave no room for an 'open minded' discussion.

Dont get me wrong. I'm all for fighting for your ideals and rights in any society. BUT. There is a danger here that i fear many do not see. I'm going to give you a clear cut example. Take the Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia for example. Just before the Khmer Rouge gained power, Cambodia was a fricking rich country, proudcer and exporter of rice; also very technogically advanced for the 1940s (i think it was then) and a hub for business. HOWEVER, due to corruption in the government, which was made public, many wanted them to step down, and many people supported the Khmer Rouge ideals (which are no different from yours or mine during the campaign period). When the new party finally came into power, disaster broke out and just because of 3 years of bad governing, look at the state of cambodia today. It is utterly backwards, it cannot even produce enough to feed its own people.

i don't think combodia was very rich in the 1940s. in the immediate aftermath of the second world war, i think only USA and switzerland were rich. in any case, what's your point?

Take the recent stepping down of Thaksin. My point is that the people forget how the present government, no matter how corrupted or authoritative or dogmatic it may be, actually did shit LOADS for the lives of the people.

the same can be said about Thaksin, of how he forgot that, at the end of the day, he needs to answer to the needs of the people. the more successful he became, the more carried away he became so much so that he forgot the concerns of his people and sold away the symbol of their national pride.

That is why the peasants supported Thaksin. The rich dont care, the rich have too much time and money on their hands and they think they have earned their wealth without any help from the government. BULLSHIT.

it's just a power struggle between a group of rich people and another group of rich people. in the end, one group triumphed over another group simply because it paid better attention to the needs of the people.

Whatever you have right now, whatever comforts, whatever opportunities you have in your hands, YOU DID NOT EARN IT ALL BY YOURSELF.

the same can be said about our leaders achievements. i always hear people say that they built this country, they gave us economic prosperity. but did they achieve these all by themselves? without the hardwork of us people, what could they have built? what prosperity would we have had?

Just fucking count yourself lucky to be born in singapore where you get mandatory education. You think you will be able to live as you are right now if you were born in the poor areas of india or worse, south africa?

why choose countries like india? why not choose countries like USA, switzerland, finland, australia? compared to these countries how much luckier can we get? teritary education in germany is free. here, they're jacking up fees year after year, so should i count myself unlucky instead?

That is why i am wary of people who claim to fight ALL THE WAY for free speech, those who are over eager to nit pick with the government, because i feel that they are spoiled citizens. Appreciate what you have right now, thats all i have to say.

what right do you have to brand individuals who speak up for injustice or wrong doing as being 'spoilt'? you belittle our concerns and demonstrate ignorance and haughtiness. there are certainly things we appreciate. but if these things can buy our conscience or shut us up then surely we must be spineless creatures.

I'm not saying that you have to close your mind to any viewpoints and to NEVER question the government. Done intelligently with proper knowledge, research and a well rounded viewpoint, it can benefit a country. BUT the thing is, most complaints and ramblings are done out of boredom and childish frustration, and i find they tend to do more harm than any real good.

'complaints', 'ramblings', 'boredom' and 'childish' are words borne out of a biased and closed disposition.

LazerLordz SG

Your arguments are all focused on 3rd World nations, sounds so much like a typical piece that is trying to scare the unwashed of Singapore about a government led by any other party.

What a hoot.

Atobe SG

The recipe for perpetual ignorance is: be satisfied with your opinions and content with your knowledge.
Elbert Hubbard (1856 - 1915)

We need men who can dream of things that never were.
John F. Kennedy (1917 - 1963),
speech in Dublin, Ireland,
June 28, 1963

Its fair to say, hey i want a government that allows us to express our own views no matter how rubbish they might be. But to what extent are you willing to sacrifice your comforts in life for ideals?

When you have a population that is disinterested in politics, cowed by the display of abusive powers, and cynical of every sincere effort of individual Singaporean to face up to the POWER OF ONE - what is your own position in accepting the individual efforts of those who dare to stand up for their beliefs and principle ?

If you are supportive and sympathetic towards these brave Singaporeans, what will be the extent of your support ?

Dont get me wrong. I'm all for fighting for your ideals and rights in any society. BUT. There is a danger here that i fear many do not see. I'm going to give you a clear cut example. Take the Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia for example. Just before the Khmer Rouge gained power, Cambodia was a fricking rich country, proudcer and exporter of rice; also very technogically advanced for the 1940s (i think it was then) and a hub for business. HOWEVER, due to corruption in the government, which was made public, many wanted them to step down, and many people supported the Khmer Rouge ideals (which are no different from yours or mine during the campaign period). When the new party finally came into power, disaster broke out and just because of 3 years of bad governing, look at the state of cambodia today. It is utterly backwards, it cannot even produce enough to feed its own people.

Are you certain of your accuracy in your understanding of the History of Cambodia - from her " Early History to Independence " ?

Was Cambodia rich in the 1940s, or was it Saigon in Vietnam that was the hub of the region - being known as 'Pearl of the Orient' ?

Take the recent stepping down of Thaksin. My point is that the people forget how the present government, no matter how corrupted or authoritative or dogmatic it may be, actually did shit LOADS for the lives of the people. That is why the peasants supported Thaksin. The rich dont care, the rich have too much time and money on their hands and they think they have earned their wealth without any help from the government. BULLSHIT. Whatever you have right now, whatever comforts, whatever opportunities you have in your hands, YOU DID NOT EARN IT ALL BY YOURSELF. Just fucking count yourself lucky to be born in singapore where you get mandatory education. You think you will be able to live as you are right now if you were born in the poor areas of india or worse, south africa?

Have you heard of the fight amongst the various parts of your body to be the BIG BOSS - when every individual body part has a valid reason to be the BOSS over the other, until the 'a-r-s-e-h-o-l-e' kept his mouth shut long enough to upset every part of the body, and with every parts willingly accept the 'a-r-s-e-h-o-l-e' to be the defacto 'BOSS' .

If you calm down enough - you maybe able to see better if you do not let your 'a-r-s-e-h-o-l-e' become the boss of your body, and let the other parts of the body work together and make YOU as the boss instead of your 'a-r-s-e-h-o-l-e' . Laughing

Try not to mix your little understanding of the circumstances in Thailand with the happenings in Singapore - they are a world apart, with a King who is deeply revered by every Thai Citizen, unlike a Head of State in Singapore that is little more then a titular Head of State that is legally manipulated by the Ruling Political Party through legislations.

The RICH in Thailand became RICH by THEIR OWN MEANS, through their INGENUITY and RESOURCEFULNESS - OR - was there a continuous succession of stable Thai Governments BEFORE THAKSIN, with each lasting long enough to provide an environment that allowed those Thai Rich - like Thaksin to grow Shin Corp ? Or was Shin Corp success due very much to the freedom that is available for PRIVATE ENTERPRISE TO GROW without any unfair competition from the STATE ?

For your information, South Africa today is enjoying a level of ecstatic freedom and true independence from the ignominious days under APARTHEID. Comparatively, in the First World of Singapore, the Singapore Citizens ability to exercise their Constitutional Rights are subject to the threats of being incarcerated by the Internal Security Act and the Criminal Detention Legislation; the Elected President is "advised" by an Advisory Panel of carefully selected persons - overseen by the Ruling Political Party.

That is why i am wary of people who claim to fight ALL THE WAY for free speech, those who are over eager to nit pick with the government, because i feel that they are spoiled citizens. Appreciate what you have right now, thats all i have to say.

I'm not saying that you have to close your mind to any viewpoints and to NEVER question the government. Done intelligently with proper knowledge, research and a well rounded viewpoint, it can benefit a country. BUT the thing is, most complaints and ramblings are done out of boredom and childish frustration, and i find they tend to do more harm than any real good.

If one is to BELIEVE in DEMOCRACY - we should also accept your position, your point of views, and your preference in letting the lowest to be your BOSS.

Can anyone stop you from your treasured position - as much as each of us value our own ?

Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.
Oscar Wilde,
The Soul of Man Under Socialism

Some men change their party for the sake of their principles;
others their principles for the sake of their party.
Winston Churchill

BillyBong SG

Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
That is so true. It is also telling when people who criticize the government have absolutely nothing positive to say and offer no credible solutions. I disagree with many government policies but one should give credit where credit is due.

And just because you agree with some government policies does not make you a government dog either...how immature can people be?

Your defensive nature seems to belly your own insecurity. For one, apart from Heng, has anyone suggested that siding with specific govt policies make you a 'govt dog'?

There are several policies that certainly warrent merit: modernisation of our transportation system, affordable education for all singaporeans (less university level) etc, but what sickens me is that our govt prefers to trump up their past successes as a platform to promote and preserve their current high status.

Such a move is dangerous and should not be frequently employed to 'remind' the people of past achievements, lest we sink into the same stinkhole as the older generation of English, who still consider the commonwealth as part of the decadant British EMPIRE, Singapore included. In any case, people look to the future and those who can provide it.

This appealing factor of regurgitating has no merit when one digs deeper into the closet of skeletons our ruling party have built; an exaggrated list of successes glossing over an equally large track record of scant failures. At the same time, a dearth of creativity in our much-acclaimed 'scholarship programme' has reduced our present economy to stagnation, a feature eagerly denied by our finance ministry, which continuously projects optimistic figures of GDP growth.

Have you ignored the suggestions raised by numerous forumers regarding the channelling of BUDGET 2006 monies into an endowment fund to REALLY help the low-income group instead of throwing 'free' money at the people, believing that such a budget plan will solve the LONG TERM issues of financial problems in the heartlands? Or the suggested improvements to our highways to incorporate car pool lanes in place of the pay and pay scheme of ERP which so far has evidently FAILED based on the numerous people who wrote into ST forum disputing the fictious improvements in traffic jams claimed by LTA at peak hours? (To this day, LTA has YET to respond)

Perhaps your blind accusations about people ignoring the GOOD that the govt has done, along with your comments about forumers that 'criticise' but 'offer no credible solutions', belly your own choice to IGNORE what HAS BEEN SUGGESTED in past posts?

SG,LauBaiXing SG

[quote]Originally posted by CaramelCrab:

Its fair to say, hey i want a government that allows us to express our own views no matter how rubbish they might be. But to what extent are you willing to sacrifice your comforts in life for ideals?

My point is that the people forget how the present government, no matter how corrupted or authoritative or dogmatic it may be, actually did shit LOADS for the lives of the people. That is why the peasants supported Thaksin. The rich dont care.
Hi,CaramelCrab.
What you've said in the above is seriously worrying to me, you are reminding me of "cooking frogs in cold water"
This is super selfishness in you if you said "no matter how corrupted or authoritive or dogmatic it may be"
I would like to engaged you to actively participate in this sgForum to give your view points to others caring Singaporeans who are ready to discuss with open minds.

oxford mushroom SG

Originally posted by BillyBong:
Have you ignored the suggestions raised by numerous forumers regarding the channelling of BUDGET 2006 monies into an endowment fund to REALLY help the low-income group instead of throwing 'free' money at the people, believing that such a budget plan will solve the LONG TERM issues of financial problems in the heartlands? Or the suggested improvements to our highways to incorporate car pool lanes in place of the pay and pay scheme of ERP which so far has evidently FAILED based on the numerous people who wrote into ST forum disputing the fictious improvements in traffic jams claimed by LTA at peak hours? ([u]To this day, LTA has YET to respond

Too many posts by forumers here have been repeating the same criticism that they sound like a broken down record player..

I have no issue with money in an endowment fund for low-income groups but the question is how is it going to be administered. Like skills development fund that already exists? How will that help those who cannot work? The devil is in the details....the armchair politicians here have to think more deeply than they have so far..

The easy money given out in the progress package is an election ploy..I think that is clear. But for all it's worth, they do give out more to those who are poorer.

Car pool? It will never work in Singapore. Go ask Singaporeans if they will share a car with a stranger. However, I do not see why there is a need for COE if we already have ERP to regulate the usage of cars on the road. Because the cost of car ownership is so high, Singaporeans would pay the ERP since they already have incurred high capital costs buying the car.

People can criticise the government and give their alternative ideas. That's fine but I do not see any balance in the arguments presented and there is a tendency to disparage those who support government policies. It only serves to discredit their political position.

pisces8 SG

The fact that no body had been prosecuted under the Election Advertising Rules 2001 is a very good indication that most people are aware of the law and are posting in a positive manner, ie responsibly.

The fact that this thread is still open, the websites still running and you are still posting shows that the Ruling Political Party do not insist on its MONOPOLISTIC GRIP on ALL FORMS OF MEDIA. So continue our WIDE AND UNCONTROLLED ACCESS to reach the minds of Singaporeans.

Joke aside, I do believe that so long we post responsibly; we can continue what we are doing.
Mr. Green

Fatum SG

hear hear ! ....

In the end, it doesn't really matter OM, some chaps here are clearly from the opposition camp, while others simply like to engage in, what another forumer calls "mental masturbation" .... some people like playing the intellectual rebels, engaging in pointless dialectics, these people don't really have a position at all ... they just like to oppose for the sake of opposing ......

ah well .... it takes all sort eh .... Wink ....

pisces8 SG

Originally posted by SG,LauBaiXing:
[quote]Originally posted by CaramelCrab:

Its fair to say, hey i want a government that allows us to express our own views no matter how rubbish they might be. But to what extent are you willing to sacrifice your comforts in life for ideals?

[b]My point is that the people forget how the present government, no matter how corrupted or authoritative or dogmatic it may be, actually did shit LOADS for the lives of the people. That is why the peasants supported Thaksin. The rich dont care.
Hi,CaramelCrab.
What you've said in the above is seriously worrying to me, you are reminding me of "cooking frogs in cold water"
This is super selfishness in you if you said "no matter how corrupted or authoritive or dogmatic it may be"
I would like to engaged you to actively participate in this sgForum to give your view points to others caring Singaporeans who are ready to discuss with open minds.[/b]

I would put it in another way, if the government is thoroughly corrupted, then the chances is the country will go down the drain, ie low possibility of vast improvement in the standard of living of the general population.

Government policies may not be good to all people but if they are good to the majority of the people then they are fine (popular policy). Some policies may not be even good to the majority of the people as of now (termed as unpopular policy) but if they ensure a long term betterment of the country then why do we object to such (if we have long term view in mind).

ShutterBug SG

What the crap! Ministers are paid so much and WE have to provide them better IDEAS????

And ideed, what good has ERP produced? Or even the COE? Roads are still jammed, people are still buying cars, and it's an ordeal trying to travel by public because of the sheer volume of commuters. And we can chalk it down to a whimsy idea conceived while in the loo with regards Car Pooling.

Ya, Progress Package so it's an election ploy, but it's still our money given back to us for now regardless of amount.

You know, I believe in time, when all of us post and pre 1965 generations have died off, the newer more globally mobile and capable generation will bleed steadily out of this country, leaving only the aged, sick, and all these foreigners.

What's left?

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